Hi Brett – No. The 5 year rule applies to each conversion individually, not the age of the Roth. Converting to a Roth IRA may ultimately help you save money on income taxes. I started to have IRA monies converted to a Roth IRA in 2018. Just so I’m clear…I funded a 2015 Traditional IRA in March 2016 and immediately converted it to a Roth IRA. Hi Suzy – If you still work for the employer where you have the 401k, you can’t do a conversion into a Roth IRA. Jeff – do the same pro rata rules apply to employeer traditional 401Ks? Converting an existing traditional IRA or another retirement account to a Roth IRA can make sense in many different situations, but not all the time. If you have to use funds from your traditional IRA in order to pay the taxes it will cost you to convert to a Roth, you're better off letting the funds sit tight. It doesn’t look like it but perhaps there’s something I haven’t thought of about it. For instance, if you expect your income level to be lower in a particular year but increase again in later years, you can initiate a Roth conversion to capitalize on the lower income tax year and then let that money grow tax-free in your Roth IRA account. We file jointly if that matters in this case. In my comment I meant withdrawal before age 59½, not 70½. You can withdraw your contributions to a Roth IRA at any time. I invested $5,000 in each of two seperate stocks. 1. I do have a Roth IRA which is more than 5-year old. I believe the answer is that there are no limits to partial conversions but I have seen conflicting information. Roth IRA Rules: Smart Ways to Minimize Taxes on a Conversion Roth IRA rules can appear limiting at first glance—but you may be able to fund a Roth by rolling over funds from another account. Maybe you could make four quarterly estimates, then make the conversion in the forth quarter, so you’ll be ahead of liability? Bottom line: 9.9 times out of 10, a Roth is the way to go! However, the potential exists for the imposition of the IRS 10% early withdrawal penalty tax in the event that the non-direct transfer goes in the wrong direction. Thank you, in advance, for any information you may give. Hi Nancy – First, you don’t need to concern yourself with the individual security values within your IRA. There are 3 background notes before the question: (1) Form 8606, in the instructions for line 2, reads: “Generally, if this is the first year you are required to file Form 8606, enter -0-.”. If each year one converts a non-deductable IRA to a Roth and pays taxes based on balances in a Rollover IRA (per the pro rata rule), one is essentially paying income tax on a portion of the rollover account. The best course of action is to file amended returns for each year in question. Also, if I complete this transaction in January 2017, can I spread out the tax burden over a couple years, for 2016 and 2017? I never made another contribution to this IRA, and since it’s been doing nothing but sitting in a money market account all this time, it only changed in value from August, 2005 to September, 2017 for a total increase in value of about $800 ($650 after annual maintenance fees). If I close my Simple Plan and opened a self-employed 401k, could I do the conversion next year and make annual contributions to the 401k too? The day before the transaction the bond was trading at a discount to face value and had accrued interest. Hi Jehan – Yes, by converting the balance each year, you’ll minimize the taxes you’ll pay on the conversion. And pay the tax on the tax income. Severance isn’t usually retirement related, it’s compensation. I can find stated declaratively what the deadline for converting from a regular IRA to a Roth for tax year 2014. Can we be subject to pay taxes on the rollover and the withdrawal of our Roth because of the five year rule? Possible workaround actions:: 1) My workplace 401K does allow for a reverse roll over of my Rollover IRA and Roth IRA. The IRS states that you can make contributions until your tax filing deadline. My presumption is the income/conversion should all be reported in 2017, correct? Hi Kyle – As to #1, no the conversion amounts aren’t considered to be Roth contributions, only conversions. I have been told by a couple of financial adviser that you can not convert any 401 or Ira dollars to a Roth if you do not have an earned income. But if you are disabled you may qualify for a waiver of even that. In the 401K, I have relatively small amount of after-tax contribution compare to pre-tax amount, and I’d like to move only the after-tax portion to Roth IRA account. I have a simple question on what I now realize is a somewhat complex topic. Ideally, the money should not come out of your retirement savings. Not even the IRS treatment is buried as pointed out by Gene. If so, what tax forms do you use, and how do you report it on your 2015 return? If I distribute it over 10-15 years, I will be past 71, I can take MRD Andy do a Roth conversion. It seems there is sort of a tipping point where the combination of RMD’s, pension income, investment income and Social Security income put relatively wealthier folks into higher tax brackets and make more of their Social Security income taxable. The trustee is going to have to report this the way it exists, and that probably can’t be changed after 12 years. Hope it makes sense now! Thanks. 413: Rollovers from Retirement Plans." I am not having tax withheld on the conversion. It shouldn’t be a problem Dave, one is a contribution, the other is a conversion of existing IRA money. That includes the tax-deductible contributions you made to the account as well as the tax-deferred earnings that have built up in the account over the years. ), there are no RMDs for inherited IRAs and all inherited IRAs must be fully distributed within 10 years. Is there any way I can get additional funds into a several-years-old Roth account? While we are capable of paying the difference, will that entire balance be due now? First, on the $10k Roth conversion, you can do that, but there will be a tax liability on the conversion to reflect pre-tax contributions and investment earnings on the traditional IRA. How to Convert a Traditional IRA to a Roth IRA. One question about the prorata rule and how to get around it. Should I do the convert to this Roth IRA or should I open a new Roth IRA account for this conversion? Regarding Conventional-to-Roth conversions, My wife and I both max out our employer 401ks and our combined incomes exceed the Roth contribution limits. SEP IRA: Consists entirely of pre-tax contributions. You should do a traditional IRA, and then convert it. The total amount that is desired to be converted is $140,000. Any ideas? “Account Type” gave the following 3 choices: “Traditional”, “Rollover”, “Roth”. In my case it would be a traditional SIMPLE IRA to ROTH IRA conversion, using a Same Trustee Transfer. Or can I also convert an external, traditional,, non delectable IRA to a Roth. To clarify – the 10% penalty would only apply to the portion of the traditional IRA that is not rolled to the Roth, correct? 2. My question is this: Ideally, I’d like to rollover my Roth 401k dollars from my old firm into a Roth IRA but it seems that because my AGI is above the limits, I could never make a contribution to this account. How much could we contribute to a Roth ? Hi Joe – There’s some dispute about multiple Roth conversions. Wouldn’t he just annually roll over however much he wants to convert to a TIRA and then immediately convert to an RIRA, and then pay taxes on the entire conversion? I recently began a new job and my employer offers a ROTH 401k and ROTH TSP with 5% matching into each (for a total of 10% matching). It may have come from your 401k, but it’s not in an IRA and no tax has been paid on the rollover. There is no limit on the number of Roth conversions. These are not in any sort of IRA or retirement plan. Since a Roth conversion is a taxable event (in other words, you will have to pay taxes on the amount of money you are converting), when determining how much to convert, you may want to consider how much money you have set aside in nonretirement sources to pay the resulting taxes. His work is regularly featured in Forbes, Business Insider, Inc.com and Entrepreneur. I covered this in Example 2 (Bentley) in the article. Thanks for the insightful article. 3. Check with a CPA if need be. I’d also like to contribute $13,000 to Traditional Ira’s in 2016. But you can also make a non-deductible contribution to a traditional IRA, then convert the money to a Roth. Or just the 2016 Traditional amount.. Hi Oscar – It should be just the traditional amount, since no tax deduction was taken for the Roth portion. Under the scenario you provided I believe (but I’m not certain, so check with your tax advisor) that the pro-rata rules will apply for 2016 since the IRA accounts will have existed for part of the year. They also gave me a 2014 5498 IRA Contribution for 11,000. Second, on the $13,000 contribution to the traditional IRA, it looks like $6500 from you and your wife. 3) Yes, you should get a 1099R. But if you do an indirect transfer (money first goes to you personally, then you transfer it to the Roth trustee within 60 days) the first IRA trustee may withhold 10% or more of the amount transferred. Any thoughts / guidance are appreciated. However, yes, the 100k does have to be included in your AGI on form 1040. My IRA contains both pre-tax and post-tax contributions. Wow, Jac, I’ve not heard of that kind of rollover. Can I start moving the same amount from my Traditional IRA to a Roth IRA as a conversion without paying taxes. 1  A Roth IRA conversion can make a lot of sense for some. I found the answer to one of my question: IRS Publication 590-B, page 30 right column about 18 lines down: “A separate 5-year period applies to each conversion and rollover. From what I have gathered, conversion of his current IRA. No profit has been made by the SEP. I am 72 and retired. As far as the timing, you’re looking for a strategy to limit taxes. Hi PJ – You can’t use the same accounts for the conversion. Hello Jeff, If Bill put $20K of stock from traditional to Roth in June, and the stock appreciated by 50%, and Bill recharacterized the $20K back to the traditional, the question I have is if Bill returns $20k to the traditional IRA, is the $10K of appreciation going to stay in the Roth under the rules of a Roth IRA since it was earned in the Roth? Here is a question about the execution of pro-rata rule. I have a rollover IRA, and a Roth and my wife also have a rollover IRA and a Roth. I have a question though. The IRA will be left with the after tax assets (25K). In many case, rolling into a ROTH when the withdrawal amount bumps you into the next bracket, is a very small difference. So if you do a conversion of a traditional IRA to a Roth IRA between Jan 1 2017 and April 15 2017, the conversion (and the tax liability) will apply to 2017, not 2016. The trustee can provide advice on how to handle a rollover, but actual tax reporting is done by you (or your accountant or tax preparer). So I did the Roth Conversion this year on an IRA I opened in 2015 but realized after I was just past the income limit for a traditional IRA. My wife and I both began saving with IRAs this year (February 2017). Hi Lafille – You can. Essentially can we be subject to be pay taxes twice on the same retirement income because of the early withdrawal and and the rollover from a traditional IRA? I am 75 and employed. Great information. So we have to be cautious. I plan to withdraw from my traditional IRA, all pre-taxed, to live on. I’m just a guy on a blog, and don’t know all the nuances of your tax situation . Meaning I don’t want to conver all of my IRA in one year, due to tax consequence. The IRS does not impose penalties on early withdrawals on 457 plans, but you do need to pay taxes on these early withdrawals. I had an old 401(k) that included nondeductible contributions (my employer allowed this). A Backdoor Roth IRA can make sense in the same scenarios any Roth IRA conversion makes sense. What is the best way to avoid or minimize the tax? But as to the Roth conversion, you might want to hold off doing that this year. My AGI is over the maximum contribution limits for a Roth IRA 2. None at all Ah Yee. You say “Trustee-to-Trustee Transfer. Therefor if one of them goes up some day, all of the gains from this point will be tax free? And then rollover my 403b to Traditional IRA then convert to ROTH during low income years. To meet the 5-year rule for Roth conversions, again the measuring period is five tax years, which essentially means any Roth conversion is deemed to have occurred as of January 1st of that year (Treasury Regulation 1.408A-6, Q&A-5(b)). Roth IRAs don’t come with Required Minimum Distributions (RMDs) at age 72 like a traditional IRA either, so you can continue letting your money grow until you’re ready to access it. My wife has only a Roth IRA. Thank you for the reply Jeff. Great article. You should work with a CPA to see what options you have. Current 401k: Plans out maxing it out for the rest of his working years. Had I realized I was going to get hit with the married filing separately income limit, I would have forgone an IRA deposit for this year and just set up a traditional and put in $5,500 into that. I can’t say that there’s a specific rule against it, but there is a blanket restriction against circumvention of IRS rules. Is 100/105 of the $5k ROTH conversion taxable in 2017? There are probably special provisions that will affect the outcome one way or another. Thanks! Here’s where the IRS pro-rata rule applies. By rolling the 457 into a Roth over the next 10 years or so, you’ll provide yourself with tax-free income, which I suspect you’ll need by then. Sorry to not be more specific, but you will need guidance from someone who knows your financial situation closely, and can provide very specific advice. I am converting 72K to Roth IRA but I want to pay the conversion tax from the Traditional IRA I am converting from. Hi Cal – You’re thinking right. Without being able to foretell the future of my investment decisions for 2016, how can I predict the amount of quarterly payments to make. Don’t miss out on Roth IRA benefits by making mistakes when you take a distribution. Roth conversions don’t have a limit. As far as the backdoor Roth, you can do that with existing IRA money. I’m on the border of the Roth IRA contribution upper limits. You can’t withdraw the gains, but you can withdraw your contributions, which will be the amount of the conversion. It works out great if your portfolio is down when you want to convert. Thanks. What penalties will I have to deal with? How you pay the tax doesn’t affect the amount of the conversion that’s taxable. I quit work at 40 years of age and have been living off of savings. All articles I’ve read treat conversions as a one time event, when for a large IRA, multiple conversions may be beneficial to avoid a higher tax bracket. However, it appears that the rule applies only to IRAs in which the funds are sent to you directly. make a non-deductible contribution of $Y to a traditional IRA for 2017 tax year – 3). Is there a way to now convert that Roth IRA to a SEP IRA without penalty? That kind of transfer eliminates taxes that might result from a delayed transfer (beyond 60 days) or one that incurs withholding, which itself could result in a tax on the withholding amount itself. Pretty good informative article. I assume that since the conversion won’t have any earnings that I wouldn’t be affected but not sure. If the answer is at the time of Roth conversion, then i should not include the basis in IRA #2 as it does not exist on January 1. Is there a dollar limit on the amount I can convert each year? Total value is $200,000 with after-tax contributions of $40,000. It may depend on how the IRA trustee reports the rollovers. Hi John, that’s an advanced question, and I’d direct you to a tax preparer (preferably a CPA). Aware that we will owe taxes from the conversion we had adjusted our withholdings from our income for the remainder of the year to soften the tax blow, but there is still a remaining balance. – In setting up the Roth IRA account to which I’ll roll over funds from my Traditional IRA, do I need to set it up as a Self-Directed Roth IRA if I wish to invest those Roth funds in equity in private companies? You can take direct delivery of the funds from your traditional IRA (check made payable to you personally), and then roll them over into a Roth IRA account, but you must do so within 60 days of the distribution. We both opened Vanguard accounts and I put in $6500 and she put in $5500 and we started with Traditional IRAs. , Hi I have read your articles and appreciate them very much. I am hoping to just undo my $5,500 deposit, deal with the minimal investment earnings, and not have to be subject to the annual 6% penalty. She would just pay the income tax on the converted amout correct? Are we permitted to do that after the tax year ended and still have it apply to that tax year? Each week, we’ll send you money tips to guide you on the path to financial freedom. 309: Roth IRA Contributions." Now here is my question I rolled over $45,000 from a 401k plan to a rollover IRA so now I have $45,000 in pretax money sitting in an Rollover IRA. One advantage Roth IRAs have over traditional IRAs is you won't have to take required minimum distributions—something to think about if you hope to leave the money to your heirs. Or do they blend because they both exist in 2017, even though technically don’t overlap? I will be 59 1/2 in April. Meanwhile your Roth contributions won’t be taxable, since there was no tax deduction when they were taken. Very helpful. For example, for your conversion to a Roth IRA in 2013, you have until October 15, 2014, to recharacterize. Basically, I would like to only have one Roth IRA account and not have to open a new Roth IRA account for every back door conversion. I am planning on making another $5500 traditional IRA contribution for tax year 2017 in June of 2017. I now want to roll over the Roth 401k dollars from my former firm’s plan into an IRA. Read more about how to undo a Roth IRA conversion here. Hi Tom – It would seem so based on the fact that most of what IRS Notice n-14-54 (https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-54.pdf) discusses is traditional IRAs. I want to convert $100,000 of a Traditional IRA to a Roth IRA in 2017. Your email address will not be published. On the other hand, if someone makes roth contribs/conversions while in the 15% tax bracket and then withdraws the money while in the 25% bracket, they made a wise choice. Hi Sarah – You can do the conversion now. Can I contritute to the Roth-in-plan offered by the employer? A same-trustee transfer, in which you tell the financial institution that holds your traditional IRA to transfer the money into a Roth account at that same institution. I really appreciate if you can give answers or point me the right place to start. I have a question on the conversion tax basis calculation. You just have to figure out what works best for you. Hi Bob – My response assumes that the Con Edison stock is in a traditional IRA. I also have a company 401K & pension (100% pretax contribution). I had no tax consequences on the conversion because I did not receive any benefit from the IRA. However, that notice contains a lot of “legalese” (as well as yet-to-be-determined provisions), and unless you’re a tax attorney, I’d be careful how you interpret it. Not sure if this would help to minimize the hit or at the least spread the hit out over time. But a CPA can file your tax return showing that the Roth contributions to the plan were post-tax. Any time requirement it has to be in the 403b or Traditional IRA? Can I convert that IRA to a Roth IRA without any taxes due, i.e. I initiated an IRA to Roth conversion with my broker in 2016. And as to where to report the conversion, if you can’t find specifically where, you should give TurboTax a call. Since we already have Roth IRAs and we will be moving them as Roth IRAs to a new trustee company, does the five year rule apply to the new trustee company or is that grandfathered from the old trustee company since they have been established Roths for more than a decade? 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